Wow. That might be a valid idea if, you know, we hadn't kicked their asses. And then did it again in 1812. Not sure you can call it an experiment when the subjects initiated the experiment by force. Do they also celebrate Irish Experiment Day on December 6th? How about on Indian Experiment Day on August 15th?
*grin* Not on December 6th, but on Easter Monday ^_^
No offense meant, hon, just found it a rather different take on the whole Independance Day thing by a preapocalytical author specialising in weird-ass views and cyberpunk-ish thinking. It's the guy behind Transmetropolitan (http://www.transmetropolitan.com/) (the comic series although comic is probably a misnomer)
Um... I meant that I was being petty. Inflicting my sense of humour on others and then being bitchy about it. Sorry, I had a day of dealing with people who don't know how to put their problems into words and I'm frustrated. Shouldn't have taken it out on you.
Warren Ellis is someone who I find tends to appeal to one of my senses of humour at times. Sometimes he pushes too much but not being British or American I just saw it as a semi-humourous satire. I didn't think that people would take it seriously but I apologize if you did. And I didn't mean "a different take" in anything other than a litteral meaning. It is a different take, neither right or wrong, just different.
Again, apologies. A link isn't anything to fall out over.
I took it seriously because I've been in situations where I've been the only American in a group of people from other English-speaking countries where they cheerfully insult (not joke, insult) my country and my culture to my face. And they thought it was perfectly acceptable to do that. And any argument I made was brushed off as any number of things.
As I read through the comments in this entry, I'm finding the same thing happening. My argument holds no weight because I'm a hypersensitive American and I can't laugh at myself. It's hurtful and dismissive, especially when people I consider friends (or close acquaintences, at least) are doing it. Satire is funny because it is designed to be offensive. Some people find it funny, and others are offended. Mr. Ellis accomplished what he set out to do.
But I accept your apology, and I apologize too because maybe your LJ was not the place to make this argument.
You're not the only one. It's happened to everyone at one time or another that its been open mike night for anyone that has a joke or insult about your country. You can either take it to heart and get mad or you can know the truth yourself and let it go. It's a choice.
I'm not saying that you can't laugh at yourself. I'm saying that you have a thin hide. If you take everything to heart, you're going to get riled up a lot. People consider America a free target, sure. Right or wrong, I'm not going to comment but they do.
I made the apology and I meant it.
In this, we will have to agree to differ though. In my original post, I didn't say that I agreed or disagreed with the post. I simply stated that it was a different view. And it is. I didn't post a comment on his journal. I just found it slightly amusing but had no idea about the can of worms it would open up. Oh well! The penalty of forwarding links, I guess.
Actually, you did say I couldn't laugh at myself (http://deannawol.livejournal.com/114709.html?thread=475669#t475669). And having been in a situation where every day was "open mike night" and I was expected to not only take the insults but thank the people for their wisdom, it's not at all unexpected that I have a "thin hide" on this topic.
Actually, I didn't say that you can't laugh at yourself. I said it was "a case of "if you can't laugh at yourself", the full quote being "if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at?". I didn't and still don't agree that any double standards were invoked. I just didn't understand the sensitivites involved and to be honest, you didn't explain them to me, so what was I to think apart from the fact that you were overreacting and taking things too seriously, that was from my point of view. You've explained them now and now I understand them more. I won't say completely because I don't. You have a sore spot - Fine, I'm not going to poke it more.
Although, one question for you to help me understand your pov a little more? If you were in a situation where people around you were making fun of your country, why didn't you a)tell them that you found it offensive and ask them to stop or b) find a different group of people to hang around with that wouldn't offend your country?
The double standard wasn't applied directly here because I didn't respond with Irish-bashing. The double standard does exist, however. I've had it happen both to me and in the larger realm of the media and politics. Country A criticizes the U.S. and the world agrees. The U.S. criticizes Country A and it's an international incident. Or Person from Country A criticizes the U.S. and Persons from Countries B, C, and D jump in to agree and/or assist. American criticizes Country A and Persons from Countries A-D accuse American of being arrogant/ethnocentric/culturally insensitive.
As far as the people making fun of the U.S. to my face, I tried to make it clear I was offended, but was usually dismissed or challenged. I avoided topics and people where I could, but unfortunately these people were my co-workers and students, so not associating with them was not an option.
I apologize for not explaining the reasons behind my opinion earlier. In this topic especially if someone tells me I've offended them I try to just back off without asking for an explanation. My knee-jerk reaction is to expect the same. Plus I try to argue larger ideas because getting into personal stuff sometimes turns into one of those "my internet penis is bigger than yours" things that drive me nuts on places like Fandom Wank. In retrospect, just saying why it bugged me in the first place would have saved everyone a lot less grief.
i mean seriously take a breath (actually take one go on no good just wiaing there) and read it again.
it is comedy. also it is a link. if you have a problem with it why not try attacking the person who posted it, its not because your afraid you will be flamed now are you?
ok. seriously child. you need to understand that some things are meant as a joke, if you don't think they are funny fair enough. To then "Dismantle" the argumnet of the "Drabble" with refences in histpry (which you got the dates wrong) just show your immaturity.
I replied here because deannawol posted the link. That's pretty much it.
One man's comedy is another man's insult. You're not in any place to say what can and cannot offend me. In addition, your use of diminutives also offends me.
I apologize if the dates were incorrect. I used Wikipedia to research the dates because I wanted to be as accurate as possible. I took the dates the constitutions were established in those countries. I referenced history because the original poster referenced history. I simply substituted "American" for the names of other British colonies. Doesn't seem nearly as funny when it's not America, does it?
Right, actually there is something I want to say to this. I have called him on what he said and told him that I found it insulting.
However, there are one or two things that I want to say. The first is that the piece even if taken as the ramblings of a man who believes that the Americans lost the war on purpose in order to start a science experiment or as it was intended a humourous drabble, the fact that America is an independant state will not change. Americans with very little training and a lot of heart handed Britain their asses and earned their independance. Nothing is going to change that fact. History has recorded it and thats not going to change.
However, your point about it not being as funny when it's not America got me thinking. I changed around the words. But before that, consider our history. For much longer than America, we (Ireland) were under the thumb of Britain. We were forceably moved off our land and given the choice of moving to the most uninhabitable part of the country or being killed. We have only truly had our independance for about 70 years even though we declared it 90 years ago. And even then, they still own us when it comes to trade and industry. We fought a war, actual and political to get out independance and Britain were a lot closer to us than they were to America and it was a lot easier to call in reinforcements to Ireland than it was to the States all those years ago. We've got a lot more to be miffed about than the States does.
You're a patriot, you love your country. Well so do I but while the world seems to like harassing your country, it does the same to us, to France, to Britain, to most countries. Ye're not alone in that. We get more than our fair share, believe me. Backwards. Drunken. Stupid. Farmers. And that's only the beginning.
At the start of this current war, the American government and Bush in particular said "With us or against us!". Not a particularly friendly action, but Britain jumped behind them. Britain, for so many years, bigger and stronger than America is now America's lapdog. Britain, who once owned America, now follows on behind America and begs for table scraps. The worm has turned. Ironic really, and probably a prompt for the drabble. I think that they are entitled to feel a little sore that their once great nation is now long gone.
The topic was the drabble.
Have another read.
Every Easter Monday, the British quietly celebrate Experiment Day. It is the anniversary of the decision to allow the Irish bogtrotters to establish “independence.” This masquerade commenced the greatest social experiment in human history, one that has run for more than ninety years.
Allowing the bogtrotters to overrun a small landmass covered with areas utterly unfit for human habitation and watching them amass astonishing wealth and computational power has in fact led them to provide the United Kingdom with the longest-running free comedy show of all time.
Here’s to you, our dancing bogtrotters. Happy Experiment Day.
Doesn't seem quite as insulting now that it's not about America does it? And do I still find it funny? Yes actually. I think its funny because I know it isn't true. And no amount of drabbles written is going to make it true. Ever. But if you want to express your view to the author, go ahead: click (http://warren-ellis.livejournal.com/74051.html?mode=reply)
{FYI: On an educational note, the date for us that is closest to July 4th is Easter Monday, the year 1916. That was the day that we declared independance from Britain even though it was another 20 years coming. I'm not sure where Dec 6th came from but if you want to know more: click (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/easter_uprising.htm).}
I actually do find it fairly insulting. Which was my point for substituting "American" for "Irish" and "Indian" in the first place. But as I said before, satire is designed to be offensive. The humor is found in the offensiveness. You happen to be a person who found it funny. I happen to be a person who found it offensive.
I am greatly amused by your magical sparkly ability to call other people stupid while you simultaneously appear to be unable to type a single typo-free sentence.
Really, "child," mind your own business and please to be sitting down and shutting up now.
And FYI: Spellcheck key = F7. Use it. It makes you look like less of an idiot.
Ah its nice to see that you agree with me so whole heartly that the ONLY attack you can come up with is to say i can't spell.
If you hadn't told me i would never have known, oh no how many other good solid arguments that i have used that is useless because i mispelled words in it!
Also, Don't for one second think that you can tell me my business. I have a mind of my own so i can, you know, think for my self.
Now please go back read Baited breaths response and think about it. Is that really the reasoned response of an adult, or is it the self centered response of a child.
"You put that on your journal, and then you lied about it and said it was a 'A different take on Independance Day' and then clicked on the link and its all your fault. and to make it seem like i know what i am doing i am going to quote random dates in history"
I kinda went "ouch" when I read that, but hey, I'm not about to get up in arms about it. Oooooh, does that mean I'm helping perpetuate a double standard? No, it just means I have better things to worry about than other people's silly opinions of my country.
*hugs Bon* I know you meant it as a joke. Some people just need to chill out.
I don't think its about double standards. I think that its a case of "if you can't laugh at yourself" but I suppose there will always be those who resent the joke. However, I'm gonna drop it - I have better things to do with my life and time.
*cuddles you and offers you fresh scones with butter and jam*
Heh, when I posted that I had just read Apa's post about double standards, so I was attempting to point out the hypocrisy. It just seemed silly -- God forbid anyone should laugh at themselves. ^^
*munches scones!* ^___^ *could really, really get used to Domestic!Bon*
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<lj-user =>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]
Rather than flaming <lj-user = deannawol>'s LJ, I'll post my reply to your crass post <a href = http://mashiroikaze.livejournal.com/168414.html>here</a>.
Feel free to call me whatever names you wish there, or just continue to bash my friends loudly as if they weren't in the room.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 02:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 02:36 pm (UTC)No offense meant, hon, just found it a rather different take on the whole Independance Day thing by a preapocalytical author specialising in weird-ass views and cyberpunk-ish thinking. It's the guy behind Transmetropolitan (http://www.transmetropolitan.com/) (the comic series although comic is probably a misnomer)
no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 02:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 03:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 03:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 03:31 pm (UTC)Warren Ellis is someone who I find tends to appeal to one of my senses of humour at times. Sometimes he pushes too much but not being British or American I just saw it as a semi-humourous satire. I didn't think that people would take it seriously but I apologize if you did. And I didn't mean "a different take" in anything other than a litteral meaning. It is a different take, neither right or wrong, just different.
Again, apologies. A link isn't anything to fall out over.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 01:35 pm (UTC)As I read through the comments in this entry, I'm finding the same thing happening. My argument holds no weight because I'm a hypersensitive American and I can't laugh at myself. It's hurtful and dismissive, especially when people I consider friends (or close acquaintences, at least) are doing it. Satire is funny because it is designed to be offensive. Some people find it funny, and others are offended. Mr. Ellis accomplished what he set out to do.
But I accept your apology, and I apologize too because maybe your LJ was not the place to make this argument.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 02:39 pm (UTC)I'm not saying that you can't laugh at yourself. I'm saying that you have a thin hide. If you take everything to heart, you're going to get riled up a lot. People consider America a free target, sure. Right or wrong, I'm not going to comment but they do.
I made the apology and I meant it.
In this, we will have to agree to differ though. In my original post, I didn't say that I agreed or disagreed with the post. I simply stated that it was a different view. And it is. I didn't post a comment on his journal. I just found it slightly amusing but had no idea about the can of worms it would open up. Oh well! The penalty of forwarding links, I guess.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 02:57 pm (UTC)But fine, whatever. I'll agree to disagree.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 03:26 pm (UTC)Although, one question for you to help me understand your pov a little more? If you were in a situation where people around you were making fun of your country, why didn't you a)tell them that you found it offensive and ask them to stop or b) find a different group of people to hang around with that wouldn't offend your country?
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 04:01 pm (UTC)As far as the people making fun of the U.S. to my face, I tried to make it clear I was offended, but was usually dismissed or challenged. I avoided topics and people where I could, but unfortunately these people were my co-workers and students, so not associating with them was not an option.
I apologize for not explaining the reasons behind my opinion earlier. In this topic especially if someone tells me I've offended them I try to just back off without asking for an explanation. My knee-jerk reaction is to expect the same. Plus I try to argue larger ideas because getting into personal stuff sometimes turns into one of those "my internet penis is bigger than yours" things that drive me nuts on places like Fandom Wank. In retrospect, just saying why it bugged me in the first place would have saved everyone a lot less grief.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 09:38 pm (UTC)are you REALLY that stupid?
i mean seriously take a breath (actually take one go on no good just wiaing there) and read it again.
it is comedy. also it is a link. if you have a problem with it why not try attacking the person who posted it, its not because your afraid you will be flamed now are you?
ok. seriously child. you need to understand that some things are meant as a joke, if you don't think they are funny fair enough. To then "Dismantle" the argumnet of the "Drabble" with refences in histpry (which you got the dates wrong) just show your immaturity.
ok. why don't you go away now child.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 01:17 pm (UTC)One man's comedy is another man's insult. You're not in any place to say what can and cannot offend me. In addition, your use of diminutives also offends me.
I apologize if the dates were incorrect. I used Wikipedia to research the dates because I wanted to be as accurate as possible. I took the dates the constitutions were established in those countries. I referenced history because the original poster referenced history. I simply substituted "American" for the names of other British colonies. Doesn't seem nearly as funny when it's not America, does it?
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 02:33 pm (UTC)However, there are one or two things that I want to say. The first is that the piece even if taken as the ramblings of a man who believes that the Americans lost the war on purpose in order to start a science experiment or as it was intended a humourous drabble, the fact that America is an independant state will not change. Americans with very little training and a lot of heart handed Britain their asses and earned their independance. Nothing is going to change that fact. History has recorded it and thats not going to change.
However, your point about it not being as funny when it's not America got me thinking. I changed around the words. But before that, consider our history. For much longer than America, we (Ireland) were under the thumb of Britain. We were forceably moved off our land and given the choice of moving to the most uninhabitable part of the country or being killed. We have only truly had our independance for about 70 years even though we declared it 90 years ago. And even then, they still own us when it comes to trade and industry. We fought a war, actual and political to get out independance and Britain were a lot closer to us than they were to America and it was a lot easier to call in reinforcements to Ireland than it was to the States all those years ago. We've got a lot more to be miffed about than the States does.
You're a patriot, you love your country. Well so do I but while the world seems to like harassing your country, it does the same to us, to France, to Britain, to most countries. Ye're not alone in that. We get more than our fair share, believe me. Backwards. Drunken. Stupid. Farmers. And that's only the beginning.
At the start of this current war, the American government and Bush in particular said "With us or against us!". Not a particularly friendly action, but Britain jumped behind them. Britain, for so many years, bigger and stronger than America is now America's lapdog. Britain, who once owned America, now follows on behind America and begs for table scraps. The worm has turned. Ironic really, and probably a prompt for the drabble. I think that they are entitled to feel a little sore that their once great nation is now long gone.
The topic was the drabble.
Have another read.
Every Easter Monday, the British quietly celebrate Experiment Day. It is the anniversary of the decision to allow the Irish bogtrotters to establish “independence.” This masquerade commenced the greatest social experiment in human history, one that has run for more than ninety years.
Allowing the bogtrotters to overrun a small landmass covered with areas utterly unfit for human habitation and watching them amass astonishing wealth and computational power has in fact led them to provide the United Kingdom with the longest-running free comedy show of all time.
Here’s to you, our dancing bogtrotters. Happy Experiment Day.
Doesn't seem quite as insulting now that it's not about America does it? And do I still find it funny? Yes actually. I think its funny because I know it isn't true. And no amount of drabbles written is going to make it true. Ever. But if you want to express your view to the author, go ahead: click (http://warren-ellis.livejournal.com/74051.html?mode=reply)
{FYI: On an educational note, the date for us that is closest to July 4th is Easter Monday, the year 1916. That was the day that we declared independance from Britain even though it was another 20 years coming. I'm not sure where Dec 6th came from but if you want to know more: click (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/easter_uprising.htm).}
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 02:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 03:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 01:50 pm (UTC)Really, "child," mind your own business and please to be sitting down and shutting up now.
And FYI: Spellcheck key = F7. Use it. It makes you look like less of an idiot.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 09:09 pm (UTC)If you hadn't told me i would never have known, oh no how many other good solid arguments that i have used that is useless because i mispelled words in it!
Also, Don't for one second think that you can tell me my business. I have a mind of my own so i can, you know, think for my self.
Now please go back read Baited breaths response and think about it. Is that really the reasoned response of an adult, or is it the self centered response of a child.
"You put that on your journal, and then you lied about it and said it was a 'A different take on Independance Day' and then clicked on the link and its all your fault. and to make it seem like i know what i am doing i am going to quote random dates in history"
oh and FYI F7 != spellchecker.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 05:51 pm (UTC)...........................
I kinda went "ouch" when I read that, but hey, I'm not about to get up in arms about it. Oooooh, does that mean I'm helping perpetuate a double standard? No, it just means I have better things to worry about than other people's silly opinions of my country.
*hugs Bon* I know you meant it as a joke. Some people just need to chill out.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 07:43 pm (UTC)I don't think its about double standards. I think that its a case of "if you can't laugh at yourself" but I suppose there will always be those who resent the joke. However, I'm gonna drop it - I have better things to do with my life and time.
*cuddles you and offers you fresh scones with butter and jam*
no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 09:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 09:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 09:57 pm (UTC)i shall go away now..
no subject
Date: 2006-07-05 11:49 pm (UTC)*munches scones!* ^___^ *could really, really get used to Domestic!Bon*
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 07:47 am (UTC)*grin* I'm not exactly sure why Domestic!Bon is coming out but my waistline isn't happy ... Other people are happy though ^_^
no subject
Date: 2006-07-06 02:53 pm (UTC)Feel free to call me whatever names you wish there, or just continue to bash my friends loudly as if they weren't in the room.